Clay

00:00:03: Substance stories about the

00:00:05: stuff that shapes our world.

00:00:08: instead of trying to kind of start from scratch or Instead of Trying To Kind Of Ignore Knowledge That Exists.

00:00:17: I mean knowledge is a resource.

00:00:19: The Same Way Energy Is A Resource?

00:00:21: Instead of you know, trying to just force oneself to creating something original there's a lot of inspiration and It can be a great starting point for creating something

00:00:57: novel.

00:00:58: Substance!

00:01:07: A recent International Energy Agency analysis found that over the next decade, cooling will be the leading driver of energy demand in built spaces.

00:01:18: We're talking homes offices factories and data centers.

00:01:22: still as The world warms Cooling isn't just a luxury it's a necessity.

00:01:30: Some places we'll become dangerously hot both here in the United States And across the World.

00:01:37: so We need innovative ways of cooling the spaces that we inhabit, but don't increase our energy consumption.

00:01:45: And maybe this answer doesn't lie only in making air conditioners more efficient… But also understanding how people in the past stayed cool – especially places around the world where heat has always been a concern!

00:02:01: I'm Joe Hansen and THIS is Substance A podcast about the discoveries and innovations in chemistry, helping us build a sustainable society for future.

00:02:12: In short we tell stories of stuff that shapes our world.

00:02:17: Humans have shaped this substance with all human history as much prehistory too!

00:02:24: Talking About Clay The oldest known clay pottery is sixteen thousand years old.

00:02:31: The oldest clay brick homes date back to the beginnings of agriculture.

00:02:36: Of course, like everything else, clay has its own chemical makeup – it's just a composite of tiny mineral particles made mostly of aluminum, oxygen and silicon…a few molecules of water tucked inside...and sometimes with some other elements thrown in.

00:02:54: That means we can still use the power of chemistry and other modern techniques to push the bounds on what clay could do.

00:03:02: So in this episode, were talking about how make whats old new again How past can inspire future And how we can innovate with one of oldest substances used by humans.

00:03:16: Brooke Kennedy will join us to explain how three D printing allows designers play with shape and aesthetics to make ancient technologies contemporary.

00:03:25: And later, Frank Lloyder from BASF will tell us how the innovative

00:03:30: CAVAPORE

00:03:31: a breathable clay-based insulation material is already protecting thousands of older homes across Europe against both heat and cold with no need for invasive retrofitting.

00:03:43: Speaking overall I think there are lots of technology out here that we got rid off without really giving them a second chance, and especially as society has changed in the focus.

00:03:54: And priorities have changed.

00:03:55: for example no one really cared or was worried about the environment or climate.

00:04:00: you know hundred fifty years ago so lot of technologies that were maybe more able in that regard disappeared.

00:04:07: Substance.

00:04:10: My name is Brooke Kennedy.

00:04:12: I'm professor industrial design at Virginia Tech United States.

00:04:17: You maybe have never heard of industrial design, but think the air conditioner that's keeping me blissfully cool right now.

00:04:26: Or the microphone I'm talking into or chair sitting on….

00:04:32: An industrial designer probably had a hand in creating each one and just about everything else around you!

00:04:41: Brooke says that Industrial Designers has an important role to play in creating more sustainable future In part, by taking cues from the past.

00:04:51: His twenty-twenty three book Reimagining Alternative Technology for Design in The Twenty First Century explores alternative and traditional technologies that have –for various reasons– been abandoned in pursuit of new shiny

00:05:08: modern.

00:05:08: I use this term innovationism.

00:05:11: That you know sometimes new technology are adopted not because They're better, but because they are interesting and that people are fascinated by them.

00:05:20: That people are somehow smitten by their

00:05:24: novelty.".

00:05:25: I think there's a lot of technologies now we've so eagerly adopted without really understanding the consequences.

00:05:33: Inspired from some traditional cooling technology described in his book Brooke & His Collaborators Are Exploring A Next Generation Method Of Cooling.

00:05:43: The multidisciplinary team developed a new kind of sculptural room partition that can cool up space without consuming electricity.

00:05:53: And you guessed it, those partitions are made from clay

00:06:00: I think.

00:06:00: ultimately i came into design out an interest in making things and using my hands.

00:06:06: As student Brooke thought he wanted to be architect but after couple internships he realized that he didn't feel as passionate about designing on the large scale of a skyscraper or even house.

00:06:19: He wanted to visualize objects and bring them into reality, where they could have an impact in the physical world with people who use it.

00:06:28: It turns out what he loved doing was exactly work for an industrial designer—even if like most people…he'd never heard.

00:06:37: I looked around and at various built things in my environment that i loved or hated, wanted to change.

00:06:45: And just ask you know who builds these things?

00:06:47: What is the profession that has engaged in it?

00:06:50: ?I kind of stumbled across this happily .And once I found it ,I really couldn't go back Designed about seventy products that went to market.

00:07:01: I have a lot of patents and you know, A lot of the work that i did was... ...a lot of recognition sort with awards etc.

00:07:08: but.. ..I think something they kind of left me feeling maybe a little bit incomplete is designing a lot stuff That didn't really last very long And ultimately it was wasted!

00:07:20: I became more interested in circularity More interested in the environment More interested health Especially trying to see how industrial design, which is inherently I think commercial.

00:07:32: How it can support the creation of goods and services that are more meaningful?

00:07:38: That are longer lasting...that can be repaired and ultimately are more

00:07:44: circular.".

00:07:53: Interested more in kind of big picture problems or sort of larger global concerns and how design, human-centered design in part can fulfill and serve these goals.

00:08:03: Human centered design focuses on the person who will actually buy and use an

00:08:09: object.

00:08:09: Understanding in general what guides people to choose one type of product or another is ultimately a black art.

00:08:21: it's really understanding What makes people tick, what makes people at very least buy but also...what are the kind of underlying needs?

00:08:31: Fears hopes desires that people have.

00:08:34: That ultimately make them gravitate to sort of certain types of products or experiences rather than others.

00:08:42: Brooke says that human-centered design can also generate objects in a long term aren't good for us.

00:08:51: Sometimes human-centered design can be very, because it's very commercial.

00:08:55: It's very much about sort of favoring what convenient and easy over what is ultimately good for the environment or even what's good for individuals' health in long term.

00:09:07: A soda served up a plastic bottle is convenient, tastes delicious its refreshing cooling but the bottle might end on landfill or worse floating in ocean.

00:09:19: Nesota isn't exactly the healthiest beverage choice.

00:09:23: Brooke says that,

00:09:35: when I came to academia and was interested in circularity research into design access to water or improving the environmental performance of various products.

00:09:54: One area that I was always very interested in, i guess you would call it legacy or ancestral technology?

00:10:02: So that was sort of the beginning of my interest and cooling technologies because I always asked the question how did people maintain some level of thermal comfort before air conditioning existed?

00:10:15: We've encountered the idea of circularity again and again

00:10:19: on this podcast.

00:10:21: At its core, Circularity involves taking something old And making it new Again finding another use for It.

00:10:29: Though we normally think Of This in Terms of Objects.

00:10:32: Brooke Says That Knowledge itself Can Be Recovered & Remade.

00:10:37: He Says that Examples Abound of Cooling Technologies That We've Known About For Centuries But researchers haven't spent a lot of time studying

00:10:46: them.

00:10:47: In a way, there are few examples of passive cooling that have to do with evaporative cooling... ...that are very highly publicized and studied or at least cited but for researchers and scholars who haven't spend enough time going really deep into the system.

00:11:08: Passive Cooling involves cooling a space without using any energy from electricity.

00:11:14: For example, the way shade of tree passively cools park bench or breeze flowing through an open window might cool your room at night.

00:11:23: Evaporative Cooling is form of passive cooling that takes advantage to fact.

00:11:28: when water evaporates it cools air around it.

00:11:33: That's why sweat cools you down on hot day.

00:11:37: It turns out that many of the so-called legacy and ancestral technologies inspired Brooke can cool spaces quite dramatically.

00:11:46: I think everybody who reads about these, has any interest similar to my own just goes nuts thinking this is all done without energy use at all.

00:11:56: Some are most impressive examples of passive cooling or found a top traditional architecture throughout the Middle East in Northern Africa Wind towers some dating back thousands of years.

00:12:08: These hollow pillars, with openings at the top catch cool air from prevailing winds to flow through building.

00:12:15: they're attached too and combined with evaporative cooling power water aqueducts or fountains.

00:12:23: Some wind towers form Iran can cool a space as much as twelve degrees Celsius.

00:12:29: that's more than twenty degrees Fahrenheit.

00:12:32: Other centuries-old objects also use evaporative cooling on a much smaller scale.

00:12:38: The Spanish water jar, Botejo cools the water inside by taking advantage of fact that water evaporates through the pores in clay.

00:12:47: The double walled zeer pot – also called Pot In Pot Refrigerator dates back at least five thousand years and uses evaporation a port between the two walls to refrigerate fruits and vegetables stored inside.

00:13:04: Another kind of clay jug, named for the capital city of Oman called Amuskates is placed in windows to enhance the cooling power

00:13:18: and the water essentially passes through the wall of the pot, and it evaporates.

00:13:31: And when it evaporate's... It takes heat energy with it or the heat is dissolved by changing the water from water to its gaseous form.

00:13:41: And then when wind passes over it, it cools.

00:13:43: so in a way It's kind of like A pre-air conditioning window unit.

00:13:48: So people have studied and referenced but again not enough attention has been placed on really understanding how to optimize these features.

00:13:57: That is where my project tried.

00:14:00: with collaborators We tryed take this step further By advancing some of the means by which clay can perform better in terms of the evaporation process.

00:14:12: Brooke worked together with architect Stefan L and building systems engineer Georg Reichard, as well a number engineering design students.

00:14:21: I think each one brought fundamental skills together.

00:14:26: Brooke brought his experience designing objects.

00:14:32: Stefan brought his understanding of space and experience with three-D design tools.

00:14:37: And Garrick bought a passion for evaporative cooling, the technical knowhow about how to test the cooling power.

00:14:48: And it occurred to us that if you would increase the surface area of the clay pot, like the claypot that you see in a muscatase is smooth.

00:15:11: Spanish Boteja's the same and smooth but with a three D printer or Clay Three-D Printer You could modulate the surface With more of a bumpy surface If you will by creating these bumps In this little sign.

00:15:25: curved Surface texture That increases The surface area So effectively evaporate the water faster, just by increasing this surface area.

00:15:36: Much of experimentation in figuring out how to work together with a three-D printer and actually achieve objects within that increased surface area?

00:15:45: That fell to students!

00:15:47: They looked at thin materials should be – how closely together columns should be placed… And just how it works with three D printed

00:15:54: clay.

00:15:55: someone has to stay there and actually wait for these things to get printed.

00:16:00: And often they fail, and often you know, there's a shape that might like but then it starts to print out and collapses.

00:16:06: There is also a lot of preparation work rolling-out.

00:16:09: we used a lot porcelain.

00:16:11: You sort of roll the dough.

00:16:12: It almost looks like dough making bread So this can take an awful long time.

00:16:21: We believe By experimenting with that, not only would it increase the speed of evaporation and potentially the cooling efficacy but also was an aesthetic thing as well.

00:16:34: You know we felt very often.

00:16:37: you know cooling systems and sort of HVAC systems they're often buried in a wall or out-of-way so can't see them because their'e mechanical columns that make the partitions, then we could really play with this sort of surface aesthetic design like a three-D texture.

00:17:04: And such it can be left out in the open as something more celebrated or central design piece for an office and outdoor space.

00:17:18: You know, in a way I think when the light went off and we realized there was sort of functional And an aesthetic benefit to what were doing.

00:17:26: To take this area research further.

00:17:48: the energy it consumes.

00:17:50: There's so much room for further exploration and optimization, but we do think that one thing the basement or the wall, within a black box and bringing it out into the open to make you more aware of it.

00:18:12: And aware really what that means.

00:18:14: because so much especially when we think about mechanical air conditioning is outside our mind.

00:18:19: but quietly its using a ton energy.

00:18:22: I mean in United States roughly twenty percent all electricity used on homes Electricity or air-conditioning adoption increasing crazily around globe.

00:18:34: So anything you could do that's passive, I think is critical.

00:18:37: And with this we're not saying throw away your air conditioner there's no... You know?

00:18:43: This can replace an air conditioner.

00:18:45: We are thinking about it more additively.

00:18:47: All these technologies would be used in tandem to help save energy In the name of human comfort.

00:18:54: While the project is still in its experimental phases, Brooke says that these kinds of partitions could turn up

00:19:11: I mean, already things like fountains and internal courtyards.

00:19:17: There are lots of precedents in Roman and Renaissance architecture that in a way Are working in this space already but sort of modernizing these techniques while honoring their past towards i think A more sustainable future

00:19:30: In the future.

00:19:31: Brooke says The team wants to figure out how To integrate rainwater systems so That These kinds Of partitions don't solely rely on municipal or well water.

00:19:40: And since clay can be sculpted into almost any shape, using rainwater could also allow the creation of cooling sculptures that might serve more than one purpose.

00:19:52: Like in bus shelters, imagine a bus shelter that collected rainwater and the water would come down to fill an evaporative cooling bench as you waited.

00:20:21: Something like this or in a subway or

00:20:23: park.".

00:20:24: Another way Brooke and his collaborators are trying move technology forward is by exploring ways make clays of similar materials which can themselves be made more sustainably.

00:20:36: Today, clay needs to be heated up really high temperatures in order.

00:21:05: For most purposes, clays actually require firing at eleven twelve thirteen even fourteen hundred degrees Celsius.

00:21:13: That's two thousand to over twenty five hundred degrees Fahrenheit.

00:21:18: I think.

00:21:18: if you're trying to tell a story which is ultimately about saving energy... ...I think the firing of clay remains one of the components that doesn't consistent with other goals for this project.

00:21:31: Brooke also thinks the partitions could make the most difference in combination with other passive cooling techniques that have been abandoned.

00:21:39: With The Advent of Air Conditioning,

00:21:41: a lot of the audience for my book really is United States who has really more completely abandoned things like shutters or building houses with thicker walls?

00:21:54: You know I think when it comes to things type of knowledge that's out there, like I said has been forgotten.

00:22:03: And in a way it needs... That knowledge needs to be maintained and needs to taught at

00:22:07: school.".

00:22:08: I mean you know both my wife and i remember how when we were kids they taught us how brush our teeth in school.

00:22:15: Brooke says just as we teach the right steps to take tooth brushing We should teaching this step so they can ensure spaces are cool and comfortable.

00:22:26: Imagine an elementary school project that tests the difference in temperature, In a room with and without closed shutters.

00:22:34: Or high-school physics course That calculates how fast heat travels through walls of different thicknesses or made With different materials.

00:22:42: He says everyone could also stand to rewire their own habits To think about what they're trying to achieve.

00:22:49: when They absentmindedly flip on switch

00:22:52: At my office today, I'm really amazed that people will come into my office regardless of how warm it is outside.

00:22:58: Sometimes It's still sixty-five degrees Fahrenheit and they'll turn on all the air conditioners They'll turn off all the ceiling fans even though... ...they don't realize if no one actually in the building a ceiling fan isn't going to help at All this.

00:23:13: a ceiling Fan doesn't cool Air!

00:23:15: It would cool you If You're standing below it but it won't Cool The Air.

00:23:19: so i think Basic knowledge like that is being kind of forgotten, and people's behavior is an outcome.

00:23:33: In a way, they're things that are kind of mundane.

00:23:35: They're not as sort of splashy and flashy as say you know wind towers from Iran or muskateses from Oman That use principles similar to the project that I did.

00:23:49: but what's something?

00:23:51: It's very important to remember.

00:23:52: so The house where i am right now it was built in nineteen nineteen And has like walls that are a foot thick.

00:23:58: You know I mean this is the way you build in Germany and a lot of continental Europe.

00:24:03: And early in the morning, I mean you can flush the house with cool air and then close the doors put down awnings or rouladen.

00:24:12: Keep the sun load out of the house without air conditioning unless it's like a hundred degrees Fahrenheit out.

00:24:19: You could keep an indoor space relatively comfortable just by using common sense long held techniques that in America have completely disappeared.

00:24:31: I mean, things like shutters are just these you know very decorative accessories but I mean shutters also in this house or used very functionally and very

00:24:40: effectively.".

00:24:41: In the end Brooke says we all maybe need to shift our mindset to consider what really want out of new technology.

00:24:50: When say solutions such as shutters thicker walls mundane We're looking for a solution feels more exciting.

00:24:59: But maybe we need to realize that technology doesn't need to be fancy or splashy, or exciting.

00:25:06: To have an exciting impact.

00:25:08: Take those thicker walls.

00:25:10: Even improving the insulation inside them is a simple yes Maybe even mundane way to make our spaces more comfortable but it can Make a huge difference on the livability of a

00:25:21: home.

00:25:23: Clay as it turns out has a role to play there as well.

00:25:26: clay is known for thousands of years as a material that has a distinct property profile.

00:25:39: But to make something new out of it, we also have nowadays with chemistry and tool box... ...to bring in different aspects or functions into the environment at the end.

00:25:52: So this is why I take the clay that's known and combine it with a lot of new technologies that we elaborated in BASF, for example.

00:26:02: And then we can create something completely new... ...for a completely new application.

00:26:08: Substance!

00:26:09: My name is Frank Reuter I'm chemist by training fifteen years working for BASf and my current title is the business manager Kavi Pohr which sounds a bit boring because it describes just the small portion of my everyday work.

00:26:24: The fact is, putting thick walls on a house doesn't do much.

00:26:28: if this stuff those walls are made out of let's heat pass through easily.

00:26:33: so insulation is key and innovations in that area can have huge impact.

00:26:39: most installation today comes from fossil fuels.

00:26:43: In contrast, cavipore is made form same minerals found in clay But those minerals don't need to be sculpted or fired like most other clays.

00:26:53: Instead, they're part of a foam that flows into the smallest cracks behind walls and then solidifies as it dries making an effective insulator!

00:27:03: It's not just clay...it is NOT just foam but yeah its more-or less an orchestra with different ingredients.

00:27:10: so we have not only clay if as a mineral Mineral materials that's inside, we have the polymer.

00:27:19: That is the glue in the end We also have a material inside which leads to water repelling effect.

00:27:26: This really something that was invented and you find also the clay foam homepage for example as a central point of information for our customers, but also for house owners where they can get a lot of information independent from the brand KaviPoor.

00:27:48: And yeah something like that is really unique and new to the market.

00:27:54: so there are some mineral based foams out there which are mostly cement-based.

00:28:00: But this is totally different in KaviProor because the hardening of gluing together.

00:28:07: This is nothing compared to cementus, but it's more like polymer chemistry that we use.

00:28:12: Cablebore combines a soap-like foam... ...that acts as scaffolding for tiny mineral particles and small amount of a polymer that helps those minerals stay in place.

00:28:24: The third ingredient which is called a crosslinker turns this freshly created flowable foam into a solid material.

00:28:31: It just takes about two minutes.

00:28:33: It's like firing the clay, but without all of heat.

00:28:36: When it sets then it has a consistency of mousse au chocolat.

00:28:40: so that is what describes best for the vets.

00:28:44: or fresh foam.

00:28:46: You have very light weight grayish porous material.

00:28:52: As the foam dries becomes spongy and pores open up.

00:28:57: The final material takes a few months to dry.

00:29:00: After that, it's ninety percent mineral based.

00:29:04: and even though the whole system starts out dissolved in water after it dries Water actually can't pass through at least not when its illiquid air and moisture Can still pass through because the microscopic pores allow the walls To breathe so that cavabore insulates from heat in the summer and cold in the winter without completely sealing up your house.

00:29:29: And it can also notably dampen ambient noise!

00:29:32: You know, this is sounding pretty nice for a studio...

00:29:35: That's the magic of chemistry.

00:29:36: so we have little additive inside that is water-soluble but after the drying process It is water repelling.

00:29:44: So its really total phase change Of these material In combination with all other ingredients that are in the clay foam system.

00:29:53: And yeah, that leads to the effect you really see.

00:29:56: The water droplets stay on surface of this porous material.

00:30:00: so it looks pretty insane but thats very fascinating!

00:30:05: Because its made mostly of minerals, cabaport isn't just liquid-water repellent It's also flame retardant.

00:30:12: and because the materials inside are harmless they can be recycled or disposed right alongside other building materials.

00:30:21: This gives homeowners a more comfortable and energy efficient house without the trade-offs that are usually required to update it.

00:30:28: The

00:30:29: unique property of KaviPur is the combination of all the properties, so its recyclability It's water repellence, nonflame ability And of course, it's the ease of application.

00:30:44: So people that work with a material so they don't want to have some itchiness or scratchiness after day of application there should be no bad smell and of course no hazardous materials inside that they breathe in every

00:31:00: day.".

00:31:01: Frank says any wall within open cavity can filled with

00:31:04: cavipore

00:31:05: by technicians who are trained without all that mess required to insulate walls using conventional insulation materials.

00:31:13: No dust and no need to tear open your walls!

00:31:16: If you think of an existing house, a family living in the house You will not tear down the wall fill the cavity And then build up the wall again.

00:31:25: So we drill a hole We put the nozzle into this hole Then let the flowable foam be injected Into these cavities.

00:31:34: Together with technology partner from ours we developed a machine, an automated machine that works just dedicated for KaviPour.

00:31:46: And now we're in the fourth generation working on the construction site.

00:31:50: it's more or less just pressing one button two buttons.

00:31:54: The Machine is automated and knowing how three components and air are brought together.

00:32:01: So step One It's the foam creation of the soap.

00:32:05: Step two, add mixture of the filler and step three at mixture off a crosslinker.

00:32:11: And then the flowable foam is injected through the nozzle into the cavity.

00:32:18: What contractor or installer should know how to push button in right way?

00:32:27: How clean machine in end.

00:32:29: but that's it.

00:32:30: After first I would say two-three houses the installers are more expert than we are in the application aspect.

00:32:38: Frank has been working with the Kavipur team since its earliest research phase, and took over this project in twenty fifteen years after screening more then six thousand different formulations.

00:32:50: The composition was certified in Germany And started appearing at first homes.

00:32:56: Today, it's earned European certification and thousands of homes across Europe in the UK are insulated with this clay foam system.

00:33:05: I love these work!

00:33:07: And i love that way we worked together.

00:33:10: so not just me but the team... ...and fulfilling all the tasks they need to bring develop a new material.. ..to bring into market form product convince customers be successful business management that we do, but also in move on and developing this material.

00:33:31: And combining all the disciplines are a little team where four people in the lab and three people under management?

00:33:39: And with that I would say that were some kind of BSF internal startup because we have our own little world.

00:33:47: which way can work an can move and be successful.

00:33:54: Of course, we all want to have a nice future on the nice planet and we just limited resources of fuels and energy.

00:34:03: And this is why we wisely should use the energy.

00:34:07: that's also in the interest of company like BASF To be one hand side pretty profitable Yeah really at trend or perhaps even ahead so to offering in its portfolio really the innovations that are needed today or perhaps also tomorrow.

00:34:26: The move towards a more sustainable future requires more than just innovation, it requires us shift our mindset but not toward prioritizing energy efficiency and healthy environment which we definitely need to do!

00:34:44: We also need to recognize simple-sounding solutions can also be groundbreaking.

00:34:49: That invention needs a purpose beyond just novelty, and that technologies from the past aren't just old fashioned but they could be founts of knowledge that can be tapped and drawn from like any other

00:35:04: resource.".

00:35:04: I could see more modern expressions on these older technology.

00:35:09: so it's not about regurgitating them or making Going back in time for nostalgic reasons, it's about learning what is valuable about these technologies and bringing them into the present for todays context.

00:35:29: We'll be off in the month of August trying to stay cool but we will be back in September where were talking about enzymes.

00:35:38: Join us on our next episode To look at that And more.

00:35:43: This has been Substance Stories about the stuff that shapes our world.

00:35:49: Substance is a podcast by BASF produced by Territory Agency in collaboration with Wake Word and me, Joe Hansen Research and scripting by Daniel Sedbrook Claudia Doyle Hardy Röder And Joe Hanson.