Fabric

00:00:00: Substance.

00:00:04: Stories about the stuff that shapes

00:00:07: our world.

00:00:08: The fashion industry is absolutely beautiful, economically a powerhouse.

00:00:13: it touches people of this world and actually if we could do better then so much more.

00:00:18: and thats what's very exciting.

00:00:32: It's art, it is political.

00:00:45: Its how we show our mood and personality.

00:00:48: Whether we care about the latest trends or just throw on whatever line around What do you wear shows world around us who are?

00:00:58: So

00:00:59: fashion is human but Fashion also deeply intertwined with relationship to sustainability.

00:01:06: One reason why We consume way too much of it.

00:01:11: And once those clothes have worn out their welcome, either because of wear and tear or because they're no longer trendy.

00:01:18: What do we do?

00:01:19: We toss them.

00:01:21: Of course Those trashed clothes don't just disappear.

00:01:25: Globally the vast majority of textiles according to a Boston Consulting Group report an estimated ninety seven million metric tons in twenty-twenty four alone end up In a landfill Or as environmental pollution And all the resources and energy that went into making those textiles end up there too.

00:01:46: The biggest issues of the fashion industry are obviously, they're all clothes you're wearing from cotton natural synthetics polyester leathers.

00:01:56: however you make them basically They make a negative environmental impact.

00:02:01: That's Christina Dean A world-renowned

00:02:04: expert

00:02:04: on Fashion & Sustainability.

00:02:07: For nearly two decades, she's headed the Hong Kong-based non-profit Redress whose aim is to transform world relationship into fashion.

00:02:16: And I'm Joe Hansen and this is Substance a podcast about discoveries in innovations chemistry beyond helping us build sustainable society for future.

00:02:28: In short we tell stories of stuff that shapes our world!

00:02:35: An industry that has the potential not only to transform our relationship with the environment, but also lives of billions people around.

00:03:05: It's emotional.

00:03:06: In thinking about the high-level benefits of this fashion industry that ties in with its economic impact, is the fact that their fashion industry can do so much good and bad – we've done a bad bit but it could be very good!

00:03:20: The Fashion Industry touches commerce & textile manufacturing But also agriculture, energy even sanitation.

00:03:29: The United Nations has a series of sustainable development goals to help improve our relationship with the planet from improving water availability, to sanitation.

00:03:38: To increasing biodiversity and preserving and championing human rights.

00:03:43: Christina believes that

00:03:45: because

00:03:45: fashion as its hands in so many different industries if we improve our relationships to fashion there will be knock-on effects all the way down the chain.

00:03:55: Substance Christina began her career back in London, working about as far away from fashion

00:04:27: and retrained as a journalist.

00:04:29: Christina moved to Hong Kong in two thousand five, being working is a freelance journalist writing for trade publications about topics that interested

00:04:37: her.

00:04:37: the great thing about big journalists you can just write about whatever you win a commission for.

00:04:42: And so I wrote about various topics but what i kept landing back on was public health and pollution.

00:04:50: As a journalist, Christina saw first hand fashions negative environmental impacts.

00:04:57: It drove her to act.

00:04:59: That year she founded Redress, the story that nudged over-the-edge wasn't one on the fashion industry.

00:05:06: it was a story she wrote about herself.

00:05:08: What really happened is I wrote my own personal transformation to try and be more ethical.

00:05:14: I didn't realise i was completely hypocritical and useless And it matched with data around pollution, exports.

00:05:26: that made me think, hopefully you know what?

00:05:29: This is a dire situation where as a relatively educated person I'm not really doing anything personally to resolve or reduce my own personal impact.

00:05:39: And so the emotional response was a personal one.

00:05:43: actually

00:05:43: Christina was angry about what she had been seeing as a journalist reporting on fashion.

00:05:49: She's also angry at herself and her own relationship with fashion in clothes.

00:05:54: So she decided do something.

00:05:56: Well, I was actually out with my now ex-husband and we went to have a date night.

00:06:01: And I was telling him just chatting about work stuff... ...and decided then that I would do it!

00:06:04: So he really said to me, ''I'm going to do

00:06:06: this!''.

00:06:07: It's gonna be ugly because I hadn't got the clue what I was doing... ...it probably was very ugly.

00:06:12: but how did you know?

00:06:13: You were so easy and often say anyone can set up an organisation is very easy.

00:06:21: If you've got a belly load of determination, I'm going to say anyone can do it.

00:06:26: The challenge is actually growing it sustaining it improving It.

00:06:30: that's the bit That was very challenging.

00:06:34: Christina knew she wanted To make a difference.

00:06:37: She wanted to Make fashion more sustainable But part Of the challenge Was figuring out what that even meant.

00:06:44: Thats because Sustainability means Different things to different people Which Can be A major Challenge when You want concrete change in a complex industry-like fashion.

00:06:54: About fifteen years ago, I was at the conference...I can't remember that guy's name who spoke so forgive me to him because he said this.

00:07:01: He said there were and are about sixty definitions of sustainability And he says only one person or thing.

00:07:08: whole wide world knows what actual definition is.

00:07:12: We all on edge see it going Who?

00:07:14: Is it the Oxford Dictionary but actually its The Planet?

00:07:18: So, the definition that we use is sustainability as an ability to maintain needs of today without damaging future.

00:07:26: The problem with this terminology is no one except a planet really knows what it actually

00:07:31: means.".

00:07:31: Fast

00:07:32: forward to twenty-twenty six nearly two decades after Christina sat down for dinner with A Dream!

00:07:38: The organization she founded pushing for one specific definition of sustainability.

00:07:44: Bearing in mind that sustainability need to touch environmental?

00:07:47: social, and the economic.

00:07:49: And you can't do one without it considering the impact on the other

00:07:53: two.".

00:07:55: So how I would answer that in practice is...I actually say because i'm a circular nerd—and this isn't necessarily to be answered by others.

00:08:07: but if people are trying to understand what sustainability means…I'd jump into the more granular and say, how can we make something more circular

00:08:26: economy?

00:08:43: Tree-speaking, if you want to get really nitpicky about this.

00:08:46: Circularity in the fashion industry is an environmental only measured system.

00:08:57: so I believe i'm right and saying that fundamentally a circular economy is a measure of the circulation of

00:09:04: materials.

00:09:05: Those ideas now define the mission.

00:09:08: Regress'

00:09:09: mission is to catalyse the circular economy by educating designers and consumers about circular fashion design, more responsible use of the haters in order to reduce clothing's negative environmental impact.

00:09:23: However, Christina says that difficulty in defining sustainability meant when she first started the organization wasn't quite sure what was going on with all this advocacy.

00:09:35: In the very early days, I said we're going to start an organisation that's gonna promote sustainable fashion.

00:09:41: And then two years later when you do a really big project with United Nations in Geneva and... ...I thought wow everybody landed here!

00:09:50: Here are the UN.

00:09:50: it sounds so glitzy and powerful and I was like whoa.

00:09:54: i can't believe it.

00:09:55: The problem is that we were promoting sustainable fashion which means something different from everyone corporatives, women's crafts.

00:10:05: by diversity sourcing waste reduction.

00:10:08: I mean so much and actually i think it was the FT picked up on our press release and rightfully it was ripped to shreds meaning you know because this...I think that kind of argument is some sustainable fashion show at The United Nations was done And the definition of sustainability was a sustainable as possible

00:10:32: Premier British magazine.

00:10:34: Christina realized that the article about redress was right, but she didn't give up and close down the organization.

00:10:42: She'd already been thinking how if she wanted to really make a difference?

00:10:46: She needed A real goal something That she could point To you And say we are going to change this.

00:10:53: it wasn't The FT's article About our project that changed my mind.

00:10:57: It Was myself that Changed My Mind Meaning.

00:10:59: I don't Really Understand What Sustainable Fashion means, because it means so many things in different parts of the world.

00:11:04: Like what happens in Bolivia is very difficult and what happens on China?

00:11:08: In terms of supply chain etc... So that's why we then changed our mission to be waste production.

00:11:16: No one will argue against this.

00:11:18: Also as an Asia-China context, we're exporting global textiles in a powerful way for the world.

00:11:23: To reduce waste is like literally obvious as hell And more recently Accelerate circularity, which is waste reduction.

00:11:33: It's just packaged a little bit more concurrently with what complex thinking about systems and fashion industry.

00:11:45: Fashion is actually an industry where the solutions for circularity already exist in theory if not so much in implementation.

00:11:54: Circular fashion comes up on all of the panels at all conferences everyone talking about circularity.

00:12:01: it isn't as important yet however The

00:12:13: problem is that if you think of the fashion industry like a ship, maybe a container ship packed full of fast-fashion halls for influencers to present on social media.

00:12:23: Well it's not as easy to turn around.

00:12:27: there are so many different drivers steering this ship like the consumer who impulse purchases a blazer

00:12:33: online,

00:12:34: to the clothing manufacturer who actually put it together.

00:12:38: To the designer who chose that blazer's cut and materials... ...to the textile manufacturer….

00:12:44: …and companies provide raw material!

00:12:47: To change fashion all of those drivers need to be steering in the same direction.

00:12:53: Given the dire political situation we are at in times of waste environment consumption, grace or statistics the tension is amongst us all.

00:13:03: There's just no question that since the start of the twenty-first century, The ship has been driving in fully wrong direction In part due to demands... well this is awkward.

00:13:16: Us you and me people wearing fashion.

00:13:20: The majority of the fashion industry is sourcing creating raw materials which operate negatively on environment full stock.

00:13:30: And therefore, the problem that we've obviously seen and it's happened in my career which is twenty years.

00:13:37: Which has been an explosion of consumption production.

00:13:40: Consumers have completely changed their relationship with clothes.

00:13:43: so you know... We are not wearing them for long but chucking away very quickly.

00:13:47: So we're gone from a sort-of gently polluting textile sector to a grossly gigantic industry which is churning out waste in the most phenomenal rates.

00:14:05: According to Ellen MacArthur Foundation, equivalent of one dump truck of textiles is either landfilled or incinerated every second around the world and so we're an idiotic outcome for situation where you've taken something that's polluting.

00:14:27: Christina doesn't think consumers are the only ones responsible for riding a ship, but that does not mean she lets them off hook to make decisions when it comes fashion.

00:14:49: And you don't have to go and start a non-profit.

00:14:59: You don' t have to start social impact business, so you can actually just start in your own home and be more accountable

00:15:05: yourself.".

00:15:06: Redress wants to empower consumers to BE accountable.

00:15:10: It's set up clothing collection sites across Hong Kong... ...and opened its second hand store the redress closet.

00:15:17: But Christina is adamant that this solution cannot just be upto consumers.

00:15:23: Other players in the fashion industry have an equally important role to play.

00:15:28: So redress isn't just focused on making it easier for consumers to make smart choices, but also working with designers to give them those choices.

00:15:38: She says that one major barrier is that designers simply don't have this scientific background To understand how to make a truly circular garment.

00:15:47: Fashion professionals Don't understand basic chemistry then they do understand circularity and they don't understand sustainability.

00:15:55: So actually in all of your big questions about what is sustainability, I'm going to bring it down to chemistry.

00:16:02: we redress with lots of fashion designers around the world or try to explain what circularity is but if they do not understand a difference between synthetic fiber and natural fiber then you have fundamental problem that does not understand anything foundations, the building blocks of the garment that they're trying to produce.

00:16:23: Then we are really in a bad

00:16:24: situation.".

00:16:25: Christina says that educating designers about sustainability is incredibly important for achieving a circular economy.

00:16:33: Redress produces educational materials and works with fashion institutes —and individual designers—to teach them The Basics!

00:16:41: Still she said it's no easy feat.

00:16:44: so redress has gotten creative.

00:16:46: Education can be quite boring.

00:16:48: you know honestly Who really wants to be educated?

00:16:50: Not that many people because peoples' attention standards are so short right now and fashion design is, I can't speak for them all but they're creative.

00:16:57: And do you want sit there learning about science or chemicals?

00:17:02: though not really... So we try make it as accessible and interesting possible.

00:17:07: in one such way sort of ramp it up and make it more exciting is to peg into a big sustainable fashion design competition which was called the Redress Design Award.

00:17:18: So essentially, The Redress design award is very consumer-focused, very fun glitzy, sustainable fashion competition but very much pegged at its very core.

00:17:29: It's a vehicle to educate next generation designers so that they have those core fundamental design principles under their belt as they enter into the industry.

00:17:40: The awards have been going on for sixteen years now, so very first.

00:17:44: designers who competed are making their way up in the fashion industry ready to transform it if other players are willing hire them and put their skills to use knowing that maybe they'll turn this ship around while consumers tugging wheels in another direction.

00:18:02: If

00:18:02: we want make quick change NOW It has to be industry that does it because you cannot expect consumers.

00:18:12: to leverage the amount of change that is needed in a short period time.

00:18:16: Even though you can look at forecasts for the fashion industry, the top CEOs will say oh they're greatest risks are there to revenue this year?

00:18:23: For example it's changing consumer sentiment.

00:18:26: so in a twisted way consumers are on their driving seat because they are the ones with the purses and actually dictating the industry.

00:18:34: but then problem is when comes sustainability buying less, wearing longer or buying more responsibly etc.

00:18:41: The consumers are not in the right driving seat because they're not actually doing the job of transforming the fashion industry to make it more sustainable.

00:18:49: So if we want a reduced pollution, It has to be industry that cleans up.

00:18:53: his act is very cheesy sort of

00:18:56: sunnery.".

00:18:56: And Christina says that the industry might have no choice.

00:19:00: Governments already starting put regulations into place directly affect choices.

00:19:04: fashion CEOs may The European Union has been especially aggressive in targeting textile waste.

00:19:12: Starting in twenty-twenty five, all member countries were required to implement clothing collection sites... ...to keep clothes out of household waste!

00:19:21: Last summer the European Parliament finalized rules so that producers of textiles sold in EU—everything from clothing and footwear….

00:19:29: …to curtains & blankets have cover costs for collecting sorting and recycling.

00:19:36: And less than two weeks before this episode aired, the EU finalized a ban on companies destroying unsold clothing, footwear and accessories.

00:19:46: The EU is major textile importer so its regulations impact the textile industry globally.

00:19:53: Christina says more is coming in that even threat of new legislation leading to change.

00:20:05: is generated by twenty fashion brands and groups, groups who have multiple brands.

00:20:12: So with that in mind if we just focus on the top twenty revenue drivers who probably also therefore are responsible for most amount of units production... If those twenty companies—and some many of them I can't remember how many publicly listed— they're looking at legislation to be ready

00:20:35: Christina says that this is a huge opportunity for companies looking to innovate.

00:20:40: Companies who invest in research and development or R&D into, For example technologies for circular manufacturing.

00:20:47: they might have an edge up on those Who continue to sail along the same decades old lane?

00:20:54: The only way To break business as usual Is to invest r&d Into innovations trademark if it's in yours green chemistry I don't anything about That.

00:21:02: i mean r & d should point to competitiveness for a company, right?

00:21:09: R&D is not about being Mother Teresa nor having Nobel Peace Prize.

00:21:15: That would be nice.

00:21:16: it's actually about developing innovative products and services that serve the industries whether thats textile or automobile.

00:21:25: The problem is too often r&d.

00:21:28: I think its very difficult to prove r & d equals ROI return on investment.

00:21:33: But then if we circle back to talking about the amount of legislation that's coming into the industry, than having an R&D budget allocation which obviously is difficult in today's economic climate.

00:21:46: Climate but it's necessary in order to keep up with externalities are changing.

00:21:52: The tide

00:21:52: is already changing as consumers start demanding more environmentally friendly options, and designers with the know-how to provide those options move up their ranks at fashion brands.

00:22:04: We've had a complete avalanche of complete fast fashion breaks disappointment landfills.

00:22:10: we now it.

00:22:12: so that is bursting kind new sentiment around timeless quality durability longevity.

00:22:21: Fashion brands, luxury fashion brands seem to be using that as a leverage point.

00:22:25: To further differentiate themselves away from ultrafast.

00:22:29: so durability is now king.

00:22:31: That's the sexiest thing in fashion

00:22:34: Substance

00:22:36: I've always been looking into durable garments and maybe there's also no surprise because my wife Is a designer.

00:22:43: So we have always been Looking at two garments that We think are more sustainable.

00:22:50: My name is Dag.

00:22:51: It's actually a Scandinavian name, it's very common especially in Norway but also Sweden yes... Very uncommon in Germany!

00:22:59: My official job title as Head of Innovation I'm responsible for innovation at the Monomers division.

00:23:06: Monomors for non-chemists are basically basic building blocks of polymers known as plastics.

00:23:13: so we're dealing with all raw materials.

00:23:18: Donk-Wiebelhaus works for BASF both investigating new kinds of polymers and also looking for ways to make already existing ones.

00:23:27: Like he just said, plastics are made up of polymer's And so our synthetic fabrics like polyester and polyamides which is also called nylon In fact, Polyester and the PET in plastic bottles Are actually same material at chemical level.

00:23:44: Much of that fast fashion is made of those synthetic fabrics, which means that those polymers like other forms of textile waste are ending up in landfills.

00:23:53: Textile wastes.

00:23:54: I think it's on everybody's mind also.

00:23:57: you know the pictures Of large textile ways and the Atacama desert or in Africa.

00:24:02: so That's a big topic about one hundred million tons of waste that generate every year.

00:24:07: So i think thats something that industry needs to look into And Thats Something Where we Also try to support with smart chemistry.

00:24:15: According to a Boston Consulting Group analysis, that number was actually closer to one hundred and twenty million metric tons in twenty-twenty four.

00:24:24: like we said at the beginning most of that ended up as garbage though about twenty percent or so it was collected for resale and recycling.

00:24:33: Of that recyclable portion less than one percent was actually recycled.

00:24:40: Doug's unit at BISF is changing that by making old fabrics new again, by recycling them at the molecular

00:24:47: level.

00:24:48: I usually use a picture of Lego bricks.

00:24:52: So polymer is long chain of molecules so sort of a long stack Of Lego bricks.

00:25:00: you could say and then if you want to do recycling your sort-of collection these long chains of Lego bricks, maybe they are already dirty and some have been broken so you want to renew them.

00:25:10: And what do we do in chemical recycling?

00:25:12: You break

00:25:13: those

00:25:14: chains down into the individual building blocks.

00:25:18: In chemistry called monomers this would be one Lego brick.

00:25:22: break it down to the individual Lego bricks, then you clean your Lego bricks.

00:25:26: You take out dirt and broken ones for example And then you reconstruct your polymerization Make a stack again of those Lego bricks Then have completely new like virgin chain of Lego bricks.

00:25:38: That's again your polymer chain in chemistry.

00:25:41: For almost year now BASF has been manufacturing new material for textiles In exactly this way.

00:25:48: They takes textile waste Break into its molecular Lego bricks and build it back up again to produce a product called Lupamed.

00:25:56: —Lupamed is sort of our trade name from BSF site for recycled polyamide six.

00:26:02: that's based entirely on textile waste.

00:26:06: Polyamide-six, better known as nylon-six... ...is common synthetic fiber though polyester still used far more frequently.

00:26:14: Polyamyde-six is especially in fabrics for products that need to be tough durable long lasting And lupamide isn't any different from other kind of polyamide six.

00:26:26: You can't really tell a difference because the specification and purity in everything, the molecular structure is completely identical but the raw material source is very different one.

00:26:36: In conventional case you usually build it up for crude oil.

00:26:41: What's special about lupamin?

00:26:43: I would even say unique that its made entirely from textile waste.

00:26:48: so we use nothing else, only textile waste.

00:26:51: And that's a big difference to other recycled

00:26:54: products.".

00:26:55: Today almost all of the tiny number of recycled textiles on the market are actually made from other plastic products but in case of lupamide it is textiles-in and

00:27:07: out.

00:27:08: In our case we really want to close the loop within the same application.

00:27:14: so we use textile waste textile.

00:27:18: So that's what we call a closed loop, and the big advantage of a closed-loop is you can do this circle over again because it will always end up at the same spot.

00:27:27: And then if I use another type of waist for example If You Use Pet Bottles To Make A Polyester Shirt Then This Is Only One Loop.

00:27:39: With Our Closed Loop Solution That Is Of Course Much more sustainable.

00:27:45: Closed-loop

00:27:45: manufacturing systems are one of the key tools for creating a circular economy.

00:27:51: as soon as a textile is at the end its life, it's fibers can be deconstructed and reconstructed into new textiles whether scrap that fell on cutting room floor during production or ripped up shirt no longer wearable.

00:28:07: turning a textile back in to a textile generates huge sustainability

00:28:12: benefits.

00:28:13: it would actually kill three birds with one stone, right?

00:28:16: So reduce the amount of waste.

00:28:18: You save natural aromatils and you also reduced the amount or CO-II emissions at that same time because if you build up your polymer chain, you take a big change from crude oil...you have many steps each of them requiring a lot of energy an effort And in our case we only go back one step then built again.

00:28:38: so there are less steps therefore less energy.

00:28:41: In twenty-twenty four,

00:28:44: BISF put those benefits to work for the fashion industry with a proof of concept collaboration with Inditex.

00:28:51: The parent company that owns the fashion brand Zara.

00:28:55: The cooperation with ZARA is a very exciting story.

00:28:57: It was the first garment that was produced from Lupamid, at this point in time it's all been produced here still on more lab and batch scales.

00:29:06: so really huge effort to do chemical recycling for our part.

00:29:11: ZARA also had partners in Spain who actually collected post-consumer textiles in collection bins as we discussed by hand manually this jacket and then eventually also was really cool about the jacket that Sarah finally produced, brought to stores.

00:29:32: This is what we call a one-material garment.

00:29:36: so this jacket wasn't only made out of recycled textiles.

00:29:42: usually you would say it's fabric but in this case not just fabric but lining velcro tapes zippers buttons sewing thread everything on this jacket was made out of the same material, all from Lupamid and that it's really cool that Zara could arrange with those partners in a value chain.

00:30:03: And also its only possible to do so.

00:30:06: something that ZARA wanted to prove is possible for polyamide.

00:30:10: With other materials say cotton you would not be able produce velcro tape or zipper for

00:30:16: example.".

00:30:16: The Zara collaboration relied upon an European based effort And in order to meet growing demands for sustainable products, BASF has since opened a dedicated recycling plant in Shanghai China.

00:30:29: The plant can produce up to five hundred metric tons of lupamide per year and relies on both polyamide-six waste produced during manufacturing AND textile waste collected from consumers!

00:30:43: The facility even handles polyamides mixed with other fibers like elastane.

00:30:49: DAG says that the plant is already enabling new fashion partnerships.

00:30:54: We are working with many brands here, there's a lot of interest in our industry and material.

00:31:00: For now we'll have to wait and see what other future products might contain Lupamead.

00:31:05: The fact also at this moment recycled textiles just way more expensive than those made from raw materials.

00:31:15: Old clothing needs to be collected and sorted by fabric type.

00:31:20: And right now the only way to do that is by hand.

00:31:23: Beyond improved sorting, recycling infrastructure companies need to invest in scaling existing innovations... ...and coming up with new ones!

00:31:34: For a while consumers might need to pay more for recycled materials.

00:31:39: The future availability of LooperMid will strongly depend on the willingness of customers to actually look for recycled materials in the shops.

00:31:49: The faster this adoption takes place, we will scale because it needs a lot of investment not only on our side.

00:31:56: but as an industry to scale really or get big

00:32:03: I find it so cheesy and so frustrating.

00:32:06: It is so banal to say everything that you do matters if we did a little bit with actually add up, the reason why i don't like it?

00:32:14: because its sounds so pathetically babyish but actual reality isn't quite true.

00:32:20: Companies Like BASF have major role in shifting fashion & textile industry But anyone can make difference whether it's in the choices we make, and what we buy or even in our professional life.

00:32:36: I would really say that for twenty years its a brilliant time to be doing this.

00:32:41: And why?

00:32:42: Because Whether there is regulation tomorrow next year on five years The industry is desperately crawling into better practices.

00:32:50: What it needs Is innovative thinkers who are collaborative Latterly minded You know, willing to participate in difficult product development innovations whatever you want to call it.

00:33:04: And so by and large I would say wow what a great time.

00:33:07: start getting into this industry because if you can excel If you can learn or be curious that he could be kind.

00:33:13: my goodness the doors will open wide for you wherever you dip your toe into The industry with gladly welcome smart thinkers.

00:33:24: All of us can be smarter thinkers when it comes to fashion.

00:33:28: Individuals can approach style with intention, designers can construct with reconstruction in mind, companies can innovate and chart a course for circularity.

00:33:40: The fashion industry may be changing but that doesn't make any less important than who we are.

00:33:48: Fashion connects the personal to global.

00:33:51: We can harness this connection to build a better world where creativity, style people and our environment can all thrive.

00:34:03: Next up on Substance the most famous or should I say infamous greenhouse gas CO-II carbon dioxide.

00:34:14: join us in our next episode as we explore that and more.

00:34:19: this has been substance stories about the stuff.

00:34:26: Substance is a podcast by BASF produced by Territory Agency in collaboration with Wake Word and me, Joe Hansen.

00:34:35: Research and scripting by Daniel Sedbrook Claudia Doyle Hardy Röder And Joe Hanson.