Salt

00:00:03: Substance.

00:00:04: Stories about the

00:00:05: stuff that shapes our world.

00:00:08: If you are looking at those salts, At room temperature they look pretty much like table salt.

00:00:13: They're white...they do not feel differently.

00:00:16: They flow like table Salt.

00:00:18: So it's pretty remarkable That just above the temperature of boiling water Just melt.

00:00:24: I think thats pretty amazing

00:00:25: Substance.

00:00:38: It is easy to imagine table salt.

00:00:40: Its one of most familiar substances on planet.

00:00:44: If you've taken even one chemistry class, You may know it's molecular formula.

00:00:48: N-A-C-L or sodium chloride.

00:00:52: And if your really paying attention that day... ...you might know the sodium and the chloride are held together by what chemists call an ionic bond.

00:01:01: But try to imagine table salt melting.

00:01:05: I don't mean like dissolving in water I mean Melting actual salt.

00:01:10: Odds are..You can't imagine That!

00:01:13: Thats because Like most salts, it melts at a really high temperature — eight hundred and one degrees Celsius.

00:01:21: That's one thousand four hundred seventy-three degrees Fahrenheit!

00:01:25: There is just no way that you are getting your stovetop hot enough for that... Of course sodium chloride isn't the only salt out there—there are millions of other compounds out there held together by ionic bonds… And most like table salt stay solid until REALLY high temperatures.

00:01:45: But for

00:01:45: some,

00:01:46: when you mix them together in very special ways You get a substance that melts at much-much lower temperatures And that meltable salty substance might just help our society move on from fossil fuels.

00:02:03: I have two small daughters.

00:02:05: I want them to live in the world That is healthy and where they can live good lives.

00:02:12: Of course, as an individual it's not easy to do everything right.

00:02:16: And in some cases this costs a lot of money.

00:02:18: but for example we had to buy our car couple months ago and we chose an electric car.

00:02:26: We also try to reduce our energy needs at home.

00:02:31: I think those steps are important.

00:02:32: on the individual level.

00:02:34: You can do alot yourself But then also ofcourse It need bigger players like BASF Like other chemical companies or other companies in general, and I hope that this is happening.

00:02:45: And with our products we can enable it as well.

00:02:48: That's basically what i like about my job.

00:02:51: Substance!

00:02:52: My

00:02:54: name is Nils Born.

00:02:55: Im a Global Marketing & Product Manager for the Nitrogen Salts which part of the Inorganics portfolio at BSF.

00:03:02: I'm now in BSF for nine years.

00:03:04: Started research on a lot of chemists doing the company... ...and moved into business after that.

00:03:12: Many problems we face have solutions in material science like batteries, solar cells chips.

00:03:20: Everything is basically connected to inorganic chemistry and materials science And during my studies at university I realized that... ...I might have the biggest impact on solving problems by going into an organic chemistry.

00:03:34: Inorganic compounds are basically any compounds That aren't made mostly of carbon or hydrogen.

00:03:40: Sugar is organic.

00:03:42: Table salt?

00:03:43: Is inorganic.

00:03:45: Nitrogen salts are exactly what they sound like, salts that contain nitrogen.

00:03:52: most of them are pretty simple and have names like sodium nitrate an ammonium chloride and ammonium nitrate.

00:04:00: you don't necessarily have to remember that but their called less important than material properties which turn out be amazing and useful in some cases.

00:04:14: For some kinds of nitrogen salts, when you mix two or more together the melting point of the mixture drops dramatically so low that scientists actually call them molten salts because they're so easy to melt.

00:04:29: Nils says that molten salts simple as may seem are one of most exciting chemical technologies for a fossil fuel free future.

00:04:40: So the melting point is actually not far above the cooking temperature of water, like hundred and fifty degrees.

00:04:47: Basically between a hundred-and-fifty and three hundred degrees.

00:04:50: And these mixtures are stable until a temperature of five hundred to six hundred degrees.

00:04:55: so this window of operation Between one hundred and fifteen and five hundred six hundred degree Is optimal for steam generation?

00:05:02: That's why you can use those salt mixtures Those so called molten salts For exactly that application.

00:05:08: Figuring out how to produce steam without also producing greenhouse gases is one of the most intractable and Also invisible challenges in the fight against climate change.

00:05:21: That's because we use steam to produce heat, And our society needs a lot of heat.

00:05:27: Globally nearly half of energy consumption In a third Of all carbon emissions go into just heating things up.

00:05:36: Those unassuming molten salts Neil's just described, they're helping to change that.

00:05:43: I'm Joe Hansen and this is Substance a podcast about the discoveries and innovations in chemistry And beyond helping us build a sustainable society for the future.

00:05:55: In short we tell stories About stuff That shapes our world.

00:06:00: This time We are taking A look at heat and salt.

00:06:05: No i am not talking about cooking.

00:06:07: Well, not just cooking.

00:06:10: I'm talking about cooking and our homes

00:06:38: Literally, all of the different steps that you can imagine in a simple daily life.

00:06:42: They are actually surrounded by heat to great extent.

00:06:46: To make sure we decarbonize and do anything meaningful We certainly need targets And tackle problems with heat and carbonization.

00:06:57: This is Sylvia Trevisan, assistant professor at KTH Royal Institute of Technology.

00:07:04: Specifically, what my research does is to look into thermal technologies for industrial decarbonization.

00:07:12: Sylvia's a mechanical engineer and it seems like she was almost born with that job?

00:07:17: I think from the very beginning of engineering mindset as kids in kindergarten or so when they asked me if i could draw the blueprint rather than typical housing has kids would do.

00:07:30: Nowadays, Sylvia's research group focuses on understanding how to generate and store heat without also generating CO₂.

00:07:39: They look at everything from how to optimize the individual parts of heaters that don't rely on fossil fuels... ...to understand which systems work best for different businesses in industries.

00:07:52: The problem with heat doesn't get nearly as much attention as flashier technologies are producing electricity But that actually fueled Sylvia's interest in it when she was a university student, and her hometown of Genoa Italy.

00:08:05: And then at some point I remember there were maybe the second year or so studies in universities... ...and we had this very great professor who was teaching heat-related things.. ..and he started explaining how heat is not really perceived in life.

00:08:20: So you always see electricity?

00:08:21: Maybe thats what are used to but it's actually needed for pretty much anything that we do and everything, that we consume in our lives.

00:08:29: It was really like a bit of an eye-opening moment where you realize well I've always been thinking about energy in certain ways

00:08:37: But

00:08:38: I realized that i'm missing out on lots.

00:08:40: So I have always been thinkin' about the energy in the sense of electricity... ...I am actually really missing big part of it Actually huge parts of it!

00:08:47: I guess maybe more personally speaking very much for the supporter of the underdog type thing, and then no fleshy as you said being... And so on.

00:08:57: So

00:08:57: I like

00:08:58: also the fact that he wasn't as popular or not as fancy in a

00:09:02: way.".

00:09:03: When most people think about the technologies for energy transition they think about technologies to produce electricity Like solar-energy and wind-energy Or technologies that use electricity like electric cars and buses.

00:09:18: It turns out we use way more fossil fuels to produce heat, whether it's to heat our homes or power our traditional factories.

00:09:28: In the case of factories nearly ninety percent of the heat that they used comes from fossil fuels.

00:09:35: Replacing heaters that use fossil fuels with heaters rely on electricity to produced heat has a potential for far more CO₂ savings than an individual switching over into electric car.

00:09:47: So of course, this all starts from the assumption that we need to produce as much electrical energy as possible for renewables.

00:09:55: And then if you can use it actually power factories or even our own buildings with heating systems which normally is today at fuel by some kind of fossil fuels than they can remove a lot of those fossil fuels and save CO₂.

00:10:12: generally speaking If we manage to shift At least a big amount of this heat, well we can largely decarbonize half the energy consumption that you have worldwide.

00:10:25: So of course it is massive potential

00:10:27: impact.".

00:10:32: Sylvia says completely transforming the energy system so every home

00:10:37: and

00:10:37: company gets all their heat from electricity will take time effort raising awareness new options out there.

00:10:47: It's one thing convincing a single homeowner to install heat pump rather than their own gas boiler.

00:10:54: that might be Rather easy-to-do But the scale at which we're talking about is completely different.

00:11:02: Let's say if you are a brewery, and If you do have another gas boiling on site You typically just turn it off turning on And that's it?

00:11:13: and then you run it, so that's easy.

00:11:23: The ease of the old fossil fuel-based heating system poses a major challenge.

00:11:28: Let us say that brewery wanted to switch to some kind of electric heater.

00:11:33: In addition buying a whole new system they also have to learn how use it And figure out what fits into their normal beer brewing process.

00:11:47: And if they want to use only renewable energy, say solar energy.

00:11:51: They still need a way to brew beer when the sun isn't shining so that it can be used when needed.

00:12:02: That adds even more complexity which might make an electric system harder too!

00:12:08: So hard….

00:12:09: It may not have been worth it for this brewery to replace their gas boiler.

00:12:14: To solve this, a new kind of company is emerging.

00:12:17: One that provides the heat in the same way as a gas company might provide the gas to run the boiler.

00:12:24: instead of selling gas at set price those companies sell Heat At A Set Price.

00:12:31: They maintain the complex equipment That produces the heat so the brewery owner can just flick-a switch and heat their brewing vats Just like they can.

00:12:39: today Those companies are providing what's known in the energy industry as heat-as-a-service.

00:12:47: Sylvia says to decarbonize industries from beer brewing, textile manufacturing and chemical production.

00:12:54: manufacturers will have to be open for becoming a new kind of customer.

00:12:59: It is more about finding first customers or right people with the right company that has strong willingness actually make an impact on their own process.

00:13:08: try out this equipment, let's say and then show how they can work to the rest of the world.

00:13:14: Sylvia says that moving toward electrified heat generation will also help companies stay competitive.

00:13:20: as regulations change.

00:13:23: it Also may make companies more able to weather changes in fossil fuel prices.

00:13:28: You can strongly delink yourself into a couple from typical fuels supply And typical cost associated with them.

00:13:34: so you are much more Resilient, let's say in your own facility and network.

00:13:40: So you can decouple from external gas supply or oil supply And the whole cost and all instability globally speaking associated with that.

00:13:52: I don't think big barrier is technical per se.

00:13:56: There are technical solutions.

00:13:57: It may be just a matter of pushing them further for development but there're solutions.

00:14:03: so i think we have transition phase Technologies, pretty much there.

00:14:07: It's more the surroundings that say they need to get ready

00:14:13: for

00:14:23: it.".

00:14:25: In a more modern context, they're already deployed on a massive scale as a way to replace fossil fuels in producing electricity.

00:14:41: Substance.

00:14:43: Molten salt has been used over the last twenty-thirty five years—a lot!

00:14:48: —in the context of concentrating solar power plants.

00:14:51: Concentrating solar power plant or CSPs are power plants that rely on energy from the sun but don't use photovoltaic solar panels.

00:15:00: that converts sunlight directly into electricity.

00:15:04: Instead they use big mirrors to concentrate the heat from the sun, store it then release as electrical energy.

00:15:13: This heat in vast majority of this plant is actually captured by molten salts and stored in molten salts.

00:15:19: So we have these power plants which has massive molten salt storage.

00:15:24: By massive I am speaking about huge tanks which are maybe fifteen meters in diameter, fifteen meters tall.

00:15:32: So it's like a big building full of molten salts.

00:15:34: so that is where they get most of the let us say maturity from a technology perspective.

00:15:40: Molten salts are perfect for CSPs not only because they melt at low temperatures but also because they can hold a lot heat and store until needed.

00:15:51: Today there are CSPs all over the world in places with lots of sun Saudi Arabia, China Morocco Spain the United States.

00:16:03: But as photovoltaics have become inexpensive There is less of a drive to build these huge city-scale power plants.

00:16:11: when solar panels can directly convert power to electricity What solar panels?

00:16:17: Can't do though.

00:16:18: Is store that energy?

00:16:21: because Of this A new purpose for molten salts has emerged.

00:16:24: what it takes advantage of The fact that they can store and produce heat.

00:16:29: There is a lot of research, I would say on different aspects from materials to some component too full system integration when it comes to molten salts.

00:16:37: And yet the main scope generally speaking into support this transition from large-scale solar plants in all of the industrial experience with that through what new sort of application in the context of industrial decarbonization?

00:16:52: To aid decarmonisation Molten salts are being integrated into systems that can convert electrical power in to heat, store it and release the heat whenever needed.

00:17:04: Companies who want to provide heat as a service are developing new systems smaller or more adaptable for industrial heating needs.

00:17:13: In principle its just electric heater storage and discharge unit.

00:17:18: when you charge the system what we do is get cold salts from the tank.

00:17:24: You pass them through the electric heater, the charging unit you get hot salts and then this goes back into the tank.

00:17:32: And so there is more

00:17:38: hot salts in to the tanks...and it's more charred!

00:17:49: To support this transition, researchers are developing new technologies like super-efficient heat pumps to heat the salts and heat exchangers to extract that heat and produce steam.

00:18:03: People also study new molten salt mixtures with better properties for steam generation.

00:18:11: One company working on providing heat as a service and relies on technology used in molten salts is Norwegian Kyoto Group.

00:18:20: Sylvia started working with Kyoto during her doctoral research, supporting their early-stage work developing molten salt systems that could be used to store heat and discharge heat.

00:18:33: Her lab still works with Kyoto to help them further optimize thermal energy storage systems.

00:18:39: Testing here in the lab we are working on a molten salt rig which can test different types of subcomponents and there is all of that prior to their installation in the real facilities, but we are working with them also on a broader perspective in terms of understanding how they're installation fits into different kind of industrial sectors.

00:19:00: How do upscale downscale it?

00:19:02: And so forth.

00:19:03: In twenty-twenty three Kyoto opened a pilot project in Alborg Denmark designed to provide steam for the city's municipal district heating system.

00:19:12: The unit itself is connected to the district heating network, so when they operate it can provide heat for buildings in the city and that provides relatively low temperature steam.

00:19:22: To do this!

00:19:23: This fall Sylvia along with researchers from her group published a study which looked at performance of the system called the HeatCube over last two years.

00:19:35: Then key things we highlighted with them was, for example the high efficiency of the system.

00:19:42: So we're speaking about efficiencies higher than ninety-three, ninety four percent between using the electric power and then delivering to heat which is in general extremely high In the context even a pilot's facility that it will course not super optimized.

00:19:58: That means that about ninety-four percent Of electrical energy goes into heating systems comes out as heat.

00:20:05: only about six percent is wasted.

00:20:09: That efficiency is already on par with state-of-the art boilers that rely on fossil fuels, but relying on electric heaters has the potential to push efficiencies much higher – even higher than a hundred percent!

00:20:23: Yes you heard it right….

00:20:24: Electric heat pumps can actually produce more energy then the electricity they take in.

00:20:31: That's because of the electric energy going into isn't itself doing the heating, it just powers a heat pump which then concentrates heat from air or ground.

00:21:02: certain electricity in and we get much more heat out of it.

00:21:06: Systems that use heat pumps aren't up-and running yet, but Sylvia says the molten salt heater in Alborg also demonstrated something nearly as important as efficiency – flexibility!

00:21:19: The other big things that were highlighted there was about the flexibility in general.

00:21:26: If you have a facility that is meant to use power, store it in the form of heat and then deliver it to the industrial client.

00:21:33: What's extremely important is that at any given time make sure we can provide the heat for the industrial clients And with demonstrated by a bunch different testing data this works so that The system as it is today can actually respond rapidly also on the charging side.

00:21:50: We are speaking our response time in order few seconds laterally So I really cope any sort of renewable fluctuating production and really support the grid in doing that, in absorbing our renewables.

00:22:03: It also opened up a lot of revenues potential because they can sell all these services to the grid operator And then make sure you know... They could get money not just for their heat but also for this supporting service.

00:22:19: let's say One

00:22:22: of the major challenges with renewables like wind and solar is they only produce power intermittently.

00:22:29: By storing heat as molten salt, and making it flexibly available systems like the HeatCube provide the electric grid a place to store all that excess electricity when there's A LOT OF IT!

00:22:43: And serve as backup for the grid in case suns not shining or winds not blowing.

00:22:49: Generally speaking from a society perspective, it's extremely important that companies like Kyoto of course have its own learning.

00:22:56: Its own pilot also to show two people and so on.

00:22:59: but It's also very good From a societal perspective That all the learnings we can translate them in way other people maybe other company Can at least partially take from them leverage them And apply their system.

00:23:14: the market for industrial decarbonization, particularly in this medium-temperature heat stage.

00:23:20: It's huge and it is largely untapped as of today.

00:23:24: And there are a number of companies going into that.

00:23:28: but I think if you ask anybody involved on the field they will never tell you about these big competitions rather than winning somebody because its actually great step forward from overall markets.

00:23:40: so just good to use.

00:23:44: share as much possible learnings and experiences.

00:23:47: Sylvia says that Kyoto is most advanced when it comes to molten, salt-based heating and storage but there are other companies out there trying do the same things.

00:23:58: There're also companies who use other materials like sand or bricks to store heat And air to transfer it steam generators Some of these companies already working with commercial partners.

00:24:10: Still, Sylvia said there's room for everyone

00:24:14: At this stage, even if there was a winning technology that winning technology would not have the ability to manufacture it at the scale and the rapidity of what we actually need.

00:24:24: With that said I strongly believe that there is no really an winning technology.

00:24:28: rather different competitive solutions actually have advantages or disadvantages let's say And can fit better with certain type requirements.

00:24:36: from the industrial side.

00:24:41: Flexibility needs certain types of integration into the overall industrial facility, whereas others can fit more in to other systems.

00:24:49: And I think all these companies agree that it's not really a major competition both because as said... The market is huge!

00:24:56: Because big barrier also lacks awareness from end users and public in general.

00:25:04: We need come together through what does and what installing this.

00:25:08: Kyoto itself has already moved past the pilot phase, and recently its first commercial heat cube started operation at KALL Ingredients – a food manufacturing plant in Hungary.

00:25:21: The molten salt for that heat cube?

00:25:24: It came from BASF.

00:25:29: For BSF there's basically two reasons you want to be involved with technology.

00:25:34: One is we are a heat user.

00:25:36: We have heat demand on different sites Especially in smaller sites, this could be used case for BSF.

00:25:43: So it's very important to observe the technology and look into it especially because it is also very easily combinable with renewable energy which BSFs are now building on some side.

00:25:56: but then of course we're a salt supplier.

00:25:58: We have an interest as a salt supply.

00:26:01: There

00:26:02: basically two ways to make nitrogen salts that can be used in molten-salt based thermal batteries.

00:26:08: They could be mined from the few places in the world where these salts occur naturally, but that comes with an environmental cost.

00:26:16: It also comes with a practical one.

00:26:19: There are just a lot of impurities In the naturally occurring salts.

00:26:22: they can destroy the properties That make them so useful for storing and transferring heat.

00:26:29: BASF produces its salts in factories without The need to mine anything.

00:26:34: Neel says.

00:26:35: that's why companies like Kyoto trust BASF to provide the quality of salts they need for their systems to work effectively.

00:26:43: So I think two things, one we are a synthetic salt producer which basically gives us better starting point because our salt is just principally better in quality and then also have a quality control on all processes that large company like BSF.

00:27:02: And we also are back-integrated.

00:27:03: We do not rely on any raw material from outside of

00:27:07: BSF.".

00:27:08: That ensures the heat cube at Kahl Ingredients in Hungary will be long lasting and perform as it's expected!

00:27:15: Their reliability is key for a company that wants to free its heat supply from fossil fuels.

00:27:26: what they manage there is to, by implementing this heat cube get a heat supply at the price that it's competitive too.

00:27:39: A gas-generated heat supply and buy them.

00:27:43: They are comparatively substituting a fossil source heat supply.

00:27:48: how soon other companies will follow suit?

00:27:50: Is still unclear

00:27:52: but change

00:27:53: is coming.

00:27:54: It's not easy to really put a number on it, but I would say there is a large demand for decarbonized steam.

00:28:01: There are push from politics and also society to decarmonize basically everything And Steam has one large generator of carbon emissions.

00:28:11: so this technology enables that.

00:28:13: So in the next ten or fifteen years we'll gather quite high importance.

00:28:21: It's always a little tricky to say, okay this is going to happen in the next three years or on the next five years.

00:28:27: But we are seeing definitely traction there and A lot of projects now in the planning phase will come into fruition over the next Five Years.

00:28:38: So I believe that Over the next few years, five years or so We'll see more and more And probably also all from the industrial end user side.

00:28:46: They would be much more aware Of these and much more willing To go into that and shift.

00:29:14: We've known about the promise of molten salts for decades.

00:29:19: The technological advancements needed to harness that promise are already here.

00:29:25: Change is already happening!

00:29:27: The path towards a sustainable future may travel over complex terrain, but not all of the tools we need to chart it are complicated.

00:29:36: Sometimes we just need people who're willing pick them up and march on ahead.

00:29:43: How do effectively decarbonize heat?

00:29:46: May have once looked like an insurmountable obstacle But today, we are closer than ever to leaving it in the dust.

00:29:56: Next time on Substance – Fibers.

00:30:00: Join us for our next episode as we dig into that and more!

00:30:05: This has been Substance Stories about The Stuff That Shapes.

00:30:10: Our World Substance is a podcast by BASF produced by Territory Agency In collaboration with Wakeword & Me Joe Hansen Research and scripting Daniel Sedbrook, Claudia Doyle, Hardy Rode and Joe Hansen.